An English lesson

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Postby spottedcat » Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:51 pm

shifty_ben wrote:Chavs understand what other Chavs say


Really? :D :wink:
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Postby shifty_ben » Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:57 pm

Almost there try again ;) The Chavs example was a better example than the Computer one. What i meant is is that

I aint dissin you mu'va bruv

makes sense to them but it isnt grammatical by even the furthest stretch of the imagination. I'm not even sure it can be classed as English

edit

Really? Very Happy Wink


Well to the extent that Chavs understand anything ;)
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Postby TheDoctor » Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:10 pm

shifty_ben wrote:I aint dissin you mu'va bruv

makes sense to them but it isnt grammatical by even the furthest stretch of the imagination. I'm not even sure it can be classed as English



It's English. English, like every other language, has a multitude of dfialects. This is closer to standard English than many.

And yes, that sentence is grammatical. In fact, its grammar is quite simple. Why do you think it has no grammar?
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Postby shifty_ben » Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:13 pm

Largely because the words used are not part of the English language, and therefore technically cannot be grammatically correct no matter how they are used. On the flip side I suppose you could argue that as the English rules of Grammar do not apply to them then they cannot be grammatically incorrect either
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Postby TheDoctor » Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:19 pm

shifty_ben wrote:Largely because the words used are not part of the English language, and therefore technically cannot be grammatically correct no matter how they are used.


The words are English. What lamguage do you think they are?

And as for foreign words not being "grammatically correct" in English sentences, I've just heard a man on the radio say "Tai Chi helps a healthy life". Is this ungrammatical? "Tai Chi" is not an English word.
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Postby shifty_ben » Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:06 pm

When I say English I mean Oxford English, or the Queens English. English is to broad a category without some refinement to the terms. Americans also speak English, but it is not in fact the Queens English. The rest of the sentence is grammatical though. Tai Chi is a Pronoun - it is the name of (in this case) an activity. Therefore that sentence remains grammatically correct. If you were to drop French phrases into a sentence then dependant on the words you used it could screw up your grammar ;)
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Postby spottedcat » Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:30 pm

spottedcat wrote:Really? :D :wink:


shifty_ben quoting spottedcat wrote: Really? Very Happy Wink


Have you got a colon muncher there Ben? :)
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Postby shifty_ben » Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:41 pm

Aparrantly so :D
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Postby nordle » Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:56 pm

Marrea wrote:OK, here are some more:

"Joe Bloggs met Andy, John and I on .... "
or
"Joe Bloggs met Andy, John and myself on .... "
Should be "Joe Bloggs met Andy, John and me on .... "


What the crap, yet again the parents lied to me throughout my formative years. No tooth fairy, no frickin santa claus and now no fippin I.

How many times did I say "me and person_b went out nicking motors last night" and the olds were like "no, what do we say?!, PEROSN_B AND I went out nicking motors last night"

And they wonder why the youth aint got no morals anymore, its cuz monkey see monkey do.
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Postby shifty_ben » Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:19 pm

And they wonder why the youth aint got no morals anymore


now that is a big understatement ;) I live in a rough area, and have done all my life. When i was the age of the kids that lurk around here, we set fire to ourselves (Don't ask) now the kids are setting other people alight. Given that I am only 19 that is 5 years it has taken for these kids to become more than a slight menace.

No respect these days thats the trouble
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Postby nelz » Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:19 am

TheDoctor wrote:If a sentence makes sense, then its grammar must be right. If sentence was ungrammatical then it would come out as nonsense.


Not so! The sentence may make sense, but the incorrect grammar may change the meaning, as in the 'Eats, Shoots and Leaves' tale. The sentence makes sense with or without the comma, but the meaning is totally different.
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." (Albert Einstein)
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Postby TheDoctor » Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:17 am

nelz wrote:
TheDoctor wrote:If a sentence makes sense, then its grammar must be right. If sentence was ungrammatical then it would come out as nonsense.


Not so! The sentence may make sense, but the incorrect grammar may change the meaning, as in the 'Eats, Shoots and Leaves' tale. The sentence makes sense with or without the comma, but the meaning is totally different.


You are actually supporting my point here, although you appear to think you aren't. A person can intend to say one thing but leave a listener thinking they said something else because they used inappropriate grammar. I get this all the time from my seventeen-year old students.

Grammar is as necessary to meaning as words. For example, the words "stones", "attention" and "displaying" are all perfectly good English words, but the the sentence "Stones attention displaying" makes no sense at all, because it doesn't begin to make grammatical sense. You couldn't even make a wild guess at its meaning.

Incidentally, the example you cite, netz, is not about grammar. It's about punctuation. But I take your point.
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Postby shifty_ben » Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:52 am

So are you an English Teacher then? If you are, then you are the first one I've met (albeit online) that didn't try and make my life hell ;) I remember doing some homework and using the MS Word Grammar gizmo, now that was a _big_ mistake. Every comma became ; and some of the sentences didn't make sense - whether they did before was arguable though. I believe the Oxford Dictionary is due a new release fairly soon, it will be interesting to see which words have been added.

Round here they have started to say sparkin or spark in the context

I'm gonna spark him

spark seems to mean punch, or assault. Don't think that will get added as a new definition for spark somehow :)
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Postby TheDoctor » Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:07 pm

shifty_ben wrote:So are you an English Teacher then?


No. I'm an economic historian by training and teach various things relating to that. But there's a sense in which all teachers are teachers of whatever language is in use in their classrooms.
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Postby shifty_ben » Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:11 pm

True enough. Without wanting to sound too obtuse what is an economic historian when it is at home? Obviously history related ;) but is it financial type history? Best I can guess :)
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