GUbuntu anyone?

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GUbuntu anyone?

Postby stuartpalmer » Fri May 06, 2011 8:53 am

I'm a fairly recent convert to Linux, having first put a toe in the water with Ubuntu 10.04 (hate the silly names) but now settled on OpenSuse 11.04 with KDE, which fits my working style better.

However, I'm still running a server (which does require a graphical interface) on Ubuntu and the fact that it's headless/VNC gave me some problems after the recent switch to Unity, which apparently could only be disabled on login (login+headless+VNC does not compute!). I eventually solved this particular problem, but in the course of finding a solution I have been disappointed by the vehemence of some of the "Gnome vs. Unity" debates on the web.

I don't want to get into such a debate here - because surely the whole philosophy of the open source community is "live and let live". Unity does not suit me, but that does not mean it is wrong or bad - some people will find it suits them much better than Gnome or KDE.

My main disappointment with Ubuntu 11.04 is that by setting Unity as the default, it has nicely kicked-in-the-teeth my efforts to persuade a former Windows user to switch to Gnome/Ubuntu on the grounds that it's not too dissimilar to Windows XP. She's currently on holiday, but when she gets home she's going to turn on her PC, accept the 11.04 upgrade and suddenly be faced with something unrecognisable. I can already hear the phone ringing as she calls to tell me she wants to go back to Windows.

I shall talk her though enabling the "classic" desktop, which will buy some time until 11.10, when, so I believe, the option will be withdrawn.

Now, we already have KUbuntu and XUbuntu (amongst others). Could we perhaps hope for a GUbunutu fork? That way we can avoid a damaging "Gnome vs. Unity" debate, preserve a simple approach path for disaffected Windows users and above all show that within the open source community we can all have what we want without having to negate the needs and preferences of others. GUbuntu anyone?
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Postby Rhakios » Fri May 06, 2011 12:44 pm

Well, as the brand new Gnome3 is very much like Unity in many ways, I don't think you'll get too much mileage out of that one. Gnome3 is as likely to befuddle an XP user as Unity, I would think.
Of course, you could always stick with 10.04 as it has a few more years support left in it, or, as you have mentioned Xubuntu, try that.
I think it unlikely that Gnome2.x will get continuing support now that 3 is here, but who knows, perhaps something like the KDE Trinity project will arise.
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Postby heiowge » Fri May 06, 2011 5:30 pm

Compiz graphics failed on my 11.04 setup with "classic desktop". Reinstalling it killed my window manager banner.

Went back to 10.10. :roll:
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Postby Wilfoster » Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:30 am

i wonder what it is in people, who when something is working well, suddenly decide to invent something else to replace it. Isn't this a case of going against the adage "If it ain't broke: Don't fix it"I've only tried the latest Ubuntu 11.04 & Mint 11 on Oracle VirtualBox. As far as I can see I've set up the virtual machine correctly:i.e. 128Mb video RAM; 3D acceleration enabled but I cannot get compiz to work at all well, leastway not as well as it works on my Suse11-2 real installation.
More importantly if I try clicking on the Unity top bar, I see File Edit etc. Under the Edit menu there is an option to "configure toobar" If I click on this the screen goes completely white & I see nothing at all! Hmmmmm.
Was/is forcibly transferring people to this Unity Desktop a reasonable thing to do. Personally I think not. OK.OK I know Ubuntu is free, but nevertheless One/I would think to listen to ones clientele.
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Postby heiowge » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:18 am

You're really not getting it are you?

Of course YOU want Unity. And as such, they made Unity. In the same as YOU wanted the buttons on the left and GIMP removing, and the install process to download a buttload of localisation settings and... :roll:

Do you get it now? YOU WANT what they make. Otherwise they wouldn't have made it. :lol:
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Postby nelz » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:50 am

Why don't you just go back to Ubuntu 4.10> If it ain't broke don't fix it.

If you don't like change, and objections to change of button positions are about the change not the position, stick with what you have. But don't complain when they bring out something really nice that you don't get. After all, do you really want 3D desktop effects, network manager, a modern browser?

No one gets it right every time, if you want progress you have to accept a few bumps along the way.
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Postby heiowge » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:53 am

I think people are more annoyed that Gnome 3 and Unity replace Gnome 2 rather than offer an alternative to it. I'm all in favour of alternatives, but disagree that they've decided to end it.

The way I see it is imagine if all car manufactures decided that they were going to stop making estate estate cars and replace their lines with a new car called a "convertable". This new car would look nicer and have a cool "wind in your hair feel". It would be all nice and shiny and everyone would be jealous.

Drivers of the old estate cars, who had got used to the fact they could fit all their stuff in the boot, and their kids in the back would be out of luck. The could keep using the old ones out there, but once they were broken, they couldn't get them fixed properly because the manufacturers don't make spares either.

The only viable alternatives are to put up with the convertable, or buy something that might work, but isn't what you really wanted, like a saloon car or an MPV.
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Postby PCNetSpec » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:35 pm

I was originally a member of the "What do they think they're doing" club, but after forcing myself to use Unity for a while (and give it a chance) I find that I absolutely cannot go back to "Classic"....

GNOME say the reason for the change to Gnome 3 is the Gnome 2.xx code base was becoming unmanageable... I take this to mean (like any other software) that it has been patched so much that keeping track of what any new additions will do was becoming difficult, and the code was becoming bloated ?

So (like any other software) it needed a "from scratch" rewrite... so what were their options.

1) rewrite it pretty much as is, but cleaner, which would probably be seen as a whole lot of work to stand still, and would no doubt still annoy people because there would be no guarantee that plugins etc. would work without a rewrite.

or

2) go for something completely new, probably incorporating things they would have *liked* to include in 2.xx but were unable... yes it would annoy some in the short term, and mean a re-write of all the plugins etc. but would (in the medium term) no doubt free up some of the devs who were having to spend a lot of time working round patches to the 2.xx code just to get new thing to work.

I seriously doubt the GNOME team didn't have a good reason for a rewrite, and only wanted a new look, or they'de have stopped at "Gnome Shell"... an unmanageable 2.xx code base seems like a valid reason to me

Asking them to support 2.xx as well as 3 would slow development even further... Gnome 3 is here to stay, and 2.xx is dead... get used to it, and give it time to mature. I have no doubt it will become everything 2.xx was and more, but will take a while, whilst third party devs adapt to it and start bringing out a raft of plugins (which may or may not include plugins that make it behave more like 2.xx).

And then there's Unity which was developed for *exactly* the same reason, Gnome 2.xx reaching 'end of life' so needing a replacement.....

The argument that it will put a lot of Windows users off switching is IMHO a non-starter... who cares, they'll switch if/when they're ready, and have always used that argument anyway... doesn't stop them switching to a Mac (who's interface is closer to Unity than to Gnome 2.xx).

Come on, the changes introduced in the Unity interface aren't *that* drastic, certainly no more drastic that XP --> Vista/Win7.

I say "Give them a chance"... if a "dinosaur" like me can change his mind..... :)
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Postby nelz » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:48 pm

heiowge wrote:I think people are more annoyed that Gnome 3 and Unity replace Gnome 2 rather than offer an alternative to it. I'm all in favour of alternatives, but disagree that they've decided to end it.

The way I see it is imagine if all car manufactures decided that they were going to stop making estate estate cars and replace their lines with a new car called a "convertable". This new car would look nicer and have a cool "wind in your hair feel". It would be all nice and shiny and everyone would be jealous.


The difference is that car manufacturers make whatever people pay them to make. I'm sure they could find people to develop GNOME 2 if enough of you were prepared to pay for the effort.

It's no different to the KDE3/KDE4 situation, the code had gone as far as it could, it was time for a fresh start.

The car analogy is bogus anyway, manufacturers are always replacing cars with new "improved" models, they don't force anyone to buy then. However, if you are prepared to pay enough, I'm sure someone will build you a Morris Marina so you don't have to deal with all this modern and different stuff.
Last edited by nelz on Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ram » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:14 pm

nelz wrote:
The difference is that car manufacturers make whatever people pay them to make. I'm sure they could find people to develop GNOME 2 if enough of you were prepared to pay for the effort.

It's no different to the KDE3/KDE4 situation, the code had gone as far as it could, it was time for a fresh start.

The car analogy is bogus anyway, manufacturers are always replacing cars with new "improved" models, they don't force anyone to buy then. However, if you are prepared to pay enough, I'm sure someone will build you a Morris Marina so you don't have to deal with all this modern and different stuff.


Yes but the steering wheel is always in front of the drivers seat.

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Postby PCNetSpec » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:33 pm

Nope... that would be an "improvement" ;)

Image

The sketch shows a Helios (French) machine from 1901, note the tiller steering and the rearward facing passenger seats at the front, obstructing the drivers view.
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Postby lok1950 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:49 pm

At the speed that it traveled I doubt that driver visibility was much of an issue.

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Postby Ram » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:50 pm

That would be gnome v1, nothing wrong with gnome v2.

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Postby PCNetSpec » Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:43 pm

Heh... Maybe fly by wire, and a joypad would be analogous to Gnome 3 ??

There are plenty of kids who's only experience of driving is on an Xbox360/PS3 .. I've often wondered if they will be baffled by not having the drivers viewpoint floating above and behind the car when they start to drive for real. :)
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Postby nelz » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:54 pm

Ram wrote:Yes but the steering wheel is always in front of the drivers seat.


And the headlamp switch is always in the same place, and the radio controls always the same? And, of course, if you don't like where they've put the air conditioning controls, you can always move them back to the same place as the old car...

Why do people use car analogies when they just don't fit?
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