Hmmm, not again... :/

Help and discussion about non-Linux operating systems

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Postby Bazza » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:30 pm

I`m not an Apple anything fan but I would like someone to
explain in words of one syllable why I should pay up to 3
times the price fo something they "produce", e.g. a personal
computer; (note, produce in inverted commas).

What is inside the Mac-heads grey matter that makes them
purchase crippled units/systems when they can get similar
devices, or near enough, using FOSS/OSs for much less and
have equally as much power if not more under the bonnet.

/Me shakes my head...
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Postby M-Saunders » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:10 pm

OS X? Naturally I'm a fan of properly open Unixes, but if you need to run Photoshop etc. and you can't stand using Windows, OS X is your only choice. It's typically Apple-y limited but it's Unixy with a lickable GUI on top and runs some pretty important (for certain industries) apps, so I can see why people would pay double that of Windows machine. Shudder.

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Postby Rhakios » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:57 pm

Bazza wrote:pay up to 3
times the price fo something they "produce", e.g. a personal
computer;


Which of their machines costs three times the price for the same hardware as some else's? Notice emphasis on same.

What is inside the Mac-heads grey matter that makes them
purchase crippled units/systems


I own a couple of Mac laptops, I can't think of any way in which they've been crippled. It's true that some open file formats aren't supported natively, but it's pretty easy to add support, much as one usually needs to add support for proprietary file formats to Linux distros.
And thanks to Fink I can even install many of my favourite GNU utilities.
In fact, I find OSX to be substantially less trouble to operate in a Linux environment than Windows, which causes me no end of problems.
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Postby Bazza » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:20 pm

Hi Rhakios...

http://www.appleinsider.com/

(I did say "up to 3 times"...)

Judging by those prices they don`t come cheap even if
you divide the US prices by 2!

As for crippling the iPad is already deliberately crippled.

AND, as someone pointed out in an earlier upload...

"Time for Micro$oft to hand over their crown ..."
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Postby Rhakios » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:16 am

You said their "personal computer" comes at up to three times the price. Which one? The iPad isn't a PC, it's a fat iPod Touch.

And which of their PCs are crippled? No "Mac-head" has yet had the chance to purchase an iPad, so it can't be that you're referring to.

Also since you want to mention the iPad, could you point me in the direction of a "similar devices, or near enough, using FOSS/OSs for much less and have equally as much power if not more under the bonnet." Over the years I've read about all the devices mentioned here and none of them look up to what I want (i.e. something which would be like the iPad but extendible and free-er). Sadly, even the more interesting units aren't readily available in the UK.
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Postby Bazza » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:46 pm

Hi Rhakios...

> You said their "personal computer" comes at up to three
> times the price. Which one?

My Philips Quad Core machine cost almost 600 UKP and even
at 2 to 1 USD to UKP is only 1200 USD. It`s about 1 year old.

It may not be 3 times but it sure is much cheaper.

> And which of their PCs are crippled?

All. Apple themselves apply EFI, (are there others?), instead
of old BIOS interrupts to obtain the best from their hardware
and by definiton that is a hardware lock-in, which they
themselves "admit" to.
I will be surprised if MS and Linux use EFI at all as standard
for their consumer OSs. If they do then I will stand corrected.

> No "Mac-head" has yet had the chance to purchase an iPad,
> so it can't be that you're referring to.

It is SO crippled that it doesn`t even have "standard" I/O of
a USB port NOR an SD card slot. It does have an Apple special
of a port that Apple may probably sell plug in adaptors to get
that facility probably at EXTRA APPLE INFLATED COST!
Suppose I wanted to code for it as a mobile piece of test gear
for my job, how do I do it without any ports?
For example how do I get DC voltage into it?
Therefore it is about as much use as a fart in a spacesuit.

With netbooks and USB even this is easy...

> Over the years I've read about all the devices mentioned
> here and none of them look up to what I want (i.e. something
> which would be like the iPad but extendible and free-er).

I looked at the first three and these DID have at least one USER
I/O, (USB), port!

Therefore by definition NOT crippled hardware wise.

To me that should be of primary importance...

But I`m not you, so what is important to me is obviously not
of great importance to you...
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Postby Rhakios » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:37 pm

Bazza wrote:Hi Rhakios...

> You said their "personal computer" comes at up to three
> times the price. Which one?

My Philips Quad Core machine cost almost 600 UKP and even
at 2 to 1 USD to UKP is only 1200 USD. It`s about 1 year old.


It has the same spec as an Apple computer? Simply counting processor power doesn't count.


> And which of their PCs are crippled?

All. Apple themselves apply EFI, (are there others?), instead
of old BIOS interrupts to obtain the best from their hardware
and by definiton that is a hardware lock-in, which they
themselves "admit" to.
I will be surprised if MS and Linux use EFI at all as standard
for their consumer OSs. If they do then I will stand corrected.


Existing BIOS systems are closed, you might recall that a recent attempt at completely open hardware was criticised on precisely this point. OpenBIOS and Open Firmware are the only free-er alternatives and I doubt either are present on any computers you or I own.

> No "Mac-head" has yet had the chance to purchase an iPad,
> so it can't be that you're referring to.

It is SO crippled that it doesn`t even have "standard" I/O of
a USB port NOR an SD card slot. It does have an Apple special
of a port that Apple may probably sell plug in adaptors to get
that facility probably at EXTRA APPLE INFLATED COST!
Suppose I wanted to code for it as a mobile piece of test gear
for my job, how do I do it without any ports?
For example how do I get DC voltage into it?
Therefore it is about as much use as a fart in a spacesuit.


I won't be buying one either, for the reasons I have already mentioned above. The device is too limited with regards to interfaces, though I think the many of the design features are spot-on.

> Over the years I've read about all the devices mentioned
> here and none of them look up to what I want (i.e. something
> which would be like the iPad but extendible and free-er).

I looked at the first three and these DID have at least one USER
I/O, (USB), port!

Therefore by definition NOT crippled hardware wise.

To me that should be of primary importance...


The first device claims to be Ubuntu compatible, but seems to be available only with Windows embedded, it's a US company with no particular indication it's available in the UK. Not a consumer device: fail!

Second device is actually available in the UK (hooray!), not exactly cheap at £449.99. Comes with Windows XP (though they say they will "help" people install Android, I'm not encouraged), 800x480 dpi resolution screen (boo!), so that's no better than my N810, which was considerably cheaper: fail!

Third device, well there's actually a selection there, some of which might be interesting, but no indication of UK availability on the manufacturers website: fail!

But I`m not you, so what is important to me is obviously not
of great importance to you...


What's important to me is to have a usable device that I can actually buy. As I mentioned in a previous post in this thread, I hope that the iPad will prompt others to make a similar device with usability the main feature, that one can actually buy in this country.
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Postby ollie » Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:22 pm

I will be surprised if MS and Linux use EFI at all as standard for their consumer OSs. If they do then I will stand corrected.


Actually, Windows is the only hold out for EFI on x86 and amd64 but supports it for Itanium CPU (only because Itanium requires EFI support). There are advantages and disadvantages to EFI but basically the idea was to provide programmable support for hardware that is OS independent.
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Postby Bazza » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:18 pm

Hi ollie...

Q: How many Linux installs of any variety are booted from EFI ?
(How many Unix, [and current AMIGA], variants too ?)

1, 2, 5......... ?

Without ancient BIOS you can kiss MikeOS goodbye...
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Postby Rhakios » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:43 pm

MikeOS is an operating system for x86 PCs, written in assembly language. It is a learning tool to show how simple OSes work


Well, quite. I don't think Mike really intends to take over the world and I'm sure most people can pick up a cheap x86 computer with an old-fashioned BIOS to run it if they want to. It'll be a long time before EFI and similar are on all computers, even if they stop selling them with traditional BIOSes tomorrow.
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Postby ollie » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:04 am

Bazza wrote:Hi ollie...

Q: How many Linux installs of any variety are booted from EFI ?
(How many Unix, [and current AMIGA], variants too ?)

1, 2, 5......... ?

Without ancient BIOS you can kiss MikeOS goodbye...


I'm pretty sure that any Debian for PowerPC Linux installs on to PowerPC hardware will use EFI, IBM's Power6 and Power7 supercomputers are also likely to use EFI, any dual boot Mac OS X + Linux, as many as require it :P

But seriously, it is only because Windows doesn't use it on x86 & amd64 that motherboards can't progress beyond BIOS.
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Postby towy71 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:43 am

Steve Bell seems to have the iPad down to a T :lol: :lol: :lol:
still looking for that door into summer
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Postby Rhakios » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:42 pm

I think you'll find Steve and his chums disagree:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZS8HqOG ... r_embedded
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Postby Bazza » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:15 pm

Hi rhakios...

He he, love it...

Amazing, fantastic, incredible and outstanding... ;oD
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Postby Rhakios » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:51 pm

Actually, I was thinking, "Super, smashing, great!" Perhaps they could get Jim Bowen to present their next product launch. ;)
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