no **** , i'm new to linux discussion group ,

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no **** , i'm new to linux discussion group ,

Postby pilchard » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:00 am

okay , here goes , i am from albany in western australia , i have been playing with computers for about twenty five years , in all that time Linux is the only o.s that has really excited me , mainly by its potential , but wouldn't you know it , as far as i can see this potential is being stiffled by "unfriendliness"
Before any one gets on thier high horse , just think about it , the only reason tha Bill #$% Gates has so many users is that it " appears to work out of the box " maybe it does and may be it doesn't but hear me now , you are all fooling yourselves if you think that Tarballs , Emacs , dependancies and probably Twenty or more Distros are going to threaten Microsoft ,
I tried Mandriva on my new ADSL Router setup yesterday , it crashed everything , I don't care why it did or what the simple nerd solution is , it just crashed .
I installed Suse 9.2 and after an Hour or so I have two windows XP and Suse working off the net , if I had kept an only Windows setup it would have takev 10 minutes.
I am commited to supporting and running everything Linux but I cannot believe you are all serious about beating Gates on the desktop.
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RE: no **** , i

Postby nelz » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:36 am

The last time I installed Windows XP from scratch, it took a lot longer than ten minutes. Some Linux distros install a lot faster than WinXP.

But who said it is about beating Gates? Linux is an alternative to Windows, it does not (and IMO should not) try to be a replacement.
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." (Albert Einstein)
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RE: no **** , i

Postby ggsinclair » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:57 am

"if I had kept an only Windows setup it would have takev 10 minutes. "

How long did it take you to install the anti virus, drivers, Office and any other software you needed?

I do agree that Linux is still too complicated for many on the desktop. I have been using Linux for well over a year and still cannot work out how to install from a Tarball (admittedly thats because I have still not read my "Linux for Dummies" book!!). But Linux is coming on leaps and bounds and I have no doubt that come of the big players in the market (Mandriva, SuSE etc.) will make desktop versions more user fiendly over the coming years.

I agree with Nelz that Linux is not about global domination. IMO Linux is more about offering choice in an otherwise monopolised market.

Gordon
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.
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Postby towy71 » Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:08 pm

The last time I installed XP (for someone else, I mostly only use Linux) it took a little over two hours and innumerable re-starts before I could go online to update. The updating took an age even on broadband. :?
I installed Ubuntu yesterday on my test machine in just under 30 mins and updated, via broadband, in under twenty minutes with just one re-start. :D
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RE: no **** , i

Postby davecs » Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:12 pm

Dunno about XP, I recently had to reinstall my computer due to a motherboard failure.

As a dual boot Win98SE and Linux, I had to install the M$ product first due to its total lack of respect for other OSs.

Win98 took hours. I could list some of the obstructions it put in my way, but I'll just give a couple of examples:

In a two-CD machine, it could not find the Win98 disk on a number of occasions. There is the constant disc swapping whilst one driver is found on one disk and another on the Windows disk. You't think this would not happen with two drives in use, but it did keep asking, and on one occasion, decided not to find the drive. It loaded the drivers it could anyway, resulting in the hardware not working and error messages on startup. Even unloading and reloading the drivers did not work. I had to start again!

There was the constant rebooting. There was the long time spent downloading MS Updates. Why they won't let you download to a disc so that you can install them all at once, and again if you get b0rked, but no, it's reboot, reboot and reboot again.

Oh and you have to install driver disks in for certain devices BEFORE plugging them in. What a pain!

Now for the Linux install. Popped PCLinuxOS disc in drive and rebooted. A few minutes later I had a live-CD linux system running. There was an error involving the screen size so I corrected that and restarted X. There was also an error involving sound: it was working but the initial settings were all muted so I corrected that. Did the Live-CD Install. 20 minutes later had full Linux installed system. Had to do a bit of fiddling to enable Firewire for my DV Camcorder, but to be honest, it was straightforward. And the complete HOWTO is at their WIKI site, (I wrote it!).

I had to go into the Control Centre to set up my Printer, but no further discs or reboots required. My scanner "just worked".

So, in conclusion:

Win98SE: Loads of fiddling, reboots, had to stop and start again at one point, discs needed for every bit of hardware.

PCLinuxOS: One disc. One reboot after installation (to move from LiveCD to Installed Version). A little fiddling, all stuff I'd learnt on the internet whenever I had a problem in the past.

So, tell me what's harder?
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RE: no **** , i

Postby bigbee » Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:19 pm

Comparing linux and windows is liking comparing apples and pears. Ok, they are both fruit and sometimes it's hard to tell the difference, but their flavor is really different.
Considering install time, when you do a minimal install (just basic X and drivers) I don't think linux is more time consuming than windows (if you're not having any kind of exotic hardware).
Most of the time your system will already install office and a vast amount of other apps for you (which consumes some install time). The only time remaining for you to complete your install is to configuring your X, sound, ... At windows, you get a bare install (unless you use wordpad as textwriter and your users stick to patience and minesweeper). At this point the misery begins: installing drivers, all the other apps (including office), online updating, ... luckily my good friend bill has include a nice automatic update (into a webbrowser, isn't this just asking for problems?) which download all the packages while I'm using the machine (causing my game to lag and my fps dropping down) and even more: everytime I download a small set of critical updates a nice popup appears stating "rebooting your machine is necessary to complete this update". Sometimes this rebooting will even happen automatically. Finally after downloading about 500mb of updates and rebooting 20 times my machine is ready for the action... So don't get me started about install times

So the machine is working, at least, for the next few months: The only windows machine on my network has a wireless usb connection and guess what: only users with admin rights can use the network card, so everybody working on that machine can freely install software, make system critical updates... leaving me with the job of reinstalling it every sixth month because control is lost to spyware... On the other hand I have a box running debian and allowing me to surf the internet, chat with my friends, post on forums, enjoy the sound of a mp3 and this machine has been running for 3 years now and from time to time apt-get updating and upgrading is helping to keep it fit, probably for the rest of its days untill the mighty computer-Lord takes out the soul of it's harddrive or cpu-fan. Compared to reinstall times, system crashes... I must say, you don't loose that much time by installing linux :)

Well, I probably can talk about performance, money and to me the most important issue: user access restriction, but that would result in a 6 page paper full of flame against m$ (and according to forumrules, you have to behave decently around here, I suppose) and it's not my intension to persuade die-hard windows users by pointing out the the advantages of linux

Well to put it all together: my personal opinion is users are freely to use the software they choose (even if it's windows), that's what linux is all about: freedom of choice. Windows has its advantages, linux has advantages (but they will become more clearly if you adapt a linux-way of thinking and managing your system). The only thing I don't understand is why people are ranking the value of a DESKTOP system by its install time...
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Postby sandyman » Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:10 pm

Only one answer then. Buy a Mac :lol:
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Postby nelz » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:09 pm

Why is install time for Linux distros such an issue? It's not as though most people do it every day - OK I've installed two distros at least six times each in the last few days, but I never claimed to be normal...
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." (Albert Einstein)
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Postby Rhakios » Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:11 pm

nelz wrote: I never claimed to be normal...


Must __ resist __ temptation __ <gasp!>
Bye, Rhakios
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Re: no **** , i'm new to linux discussion group ,

Postby towy71 » Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:16 pm

pilchard wrote:the only reason tha Bill #$% Gates has so many users is that it " appears to work out of the box "

Yes, your right only appears!
The only reason Bill Gates has such a big market is because he tied IBM into his scheme with a "Quick and Dirty Operating System" and he has cleaned up in terms of income, but left lowly techs still cleaning up the mess 20 some years on.
In terms of a replacement, nobody could be that incompetent, if you know what I mean ;-)

Dick
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Postby sandyman » Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:44 pm

As someone who has done a lot of fscking around with installs recently see What Distro for a Laptop? I reckon I'm pretty well qualified to talk about install times.

OK I've had my trials and tribulations with Linux, but there again it has been on a laptop. Never the easiest piece of kit at the best of times. All I can say is

1. Time to install and customise Kubuntu < 1 hour
2. Time to install and customise Windows XP 4-5 hours.

That XP may be easier to setup for additional hardware addons may be true, but for the initial install it's no contest. Linux wins out. IMHO only OS X is quicker and more complete regarding installs, but that's another story and a different kettle of fish.
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Postby hairymunky » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:19 pm

Like everything, its all aboot choice. If there is only one OS then everything is boring, the same, indifferent. Linux, (and other OSes) give us something different from that boring normal. I like linux because it offers something MS doesn't - a chance to learn how to really use a computer, and not how just to spend 8hrs a week removing malware. Ive learned more with linux in a week, than I ever did with MS in a year!
Fair enough it has its problems, but in my opinion thats down to hardware manufacturers being reluctent to port drivers to the OS.
And for the most, there are package managers to install software (as well as red carpet and auto-package). Choice again is in the users hand :)

Also I'm in the middle of a repair job on a winXP machine, thats basically ******! Shutsdown at every boot. Problem is that it has about 2 gigs of holiday pictures that the owner wants to keep....
solution, I booted Knoppix (from LXF cover DVD), mounted the ntfs partition, wrote the images to DVD, and now Ive got aboot 4hrs of re-installing to do :(
If it was Linux, Id be looking at aboot an hour :)

Windows may work out the box, but connect to the internet unprotected and its goodbye pretty desktop, and hello knackered machine! Ah well better go do the re-install!!!!
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Postby nelz » Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:47 pm

sandyman wrote:OK I've had my trials and tribulations with Linux, but there again it has been on a laptop. Never the easiest piece of kit at the best of times. All I can say is

1. Time to install and customise Kubuntu < 1 hour
2. Time to install and customise Windows XP 4-5 hours.


4-5 hours! I knew it was bad but not that bad. I installed Gentoo, complete with KDE, on my iBook in not much more than an hour.
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Postby zarathustra » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:05 pm

The last time I installed Windows XP from scratch, it took a lot longer than ten minutes.


Yes but they never quite stated from scratch, they could be refering to the 'recovery install' not the same.

I cannot believe you are all serious about beating Gates on the desktop.


We are? Sorry but in my house Linux beat windows on the desktop ohhhhhhh when I built my first PC and needed an OS :) Heck and it came with several comprehensive manuals, which were in themselves very educational. I guess nowadays many download their distro and when stuck kinda moan, but I say use your net connection to surf for help and manuals etc or better yet put your money where your mouth is and buy a boxed set again because then you'll get manuals which cover most problems and even take you into areas less commonly explored.
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Postby pilchard » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:38 pm

zarathustra wrote:



tsk tsk , ialways put my money where my mouth is , have purchased all xp's , have purchased mandrake , all antivirus stuff , and am considering suse 9.3 , we all put our money where our mouth is don't we ???? :roll:
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