Craven Lords back ID cards

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RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Craven Lords back ID cards

Postby towy71 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:19 pm

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RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Craven Lords back ID cards

Postby GMorgan » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:24 pm

Getting ID'd for drink is not something I really care about on the scale of the ID card problem. Requiring an ID card to renew a drivers license or passport, to get employment or use the NHS. To have all my details on a database that has already been openly agreed to be sold to corperatations. To have my official identification in one uniform package to make it easier for fraudsters to take over my life. To be threatend with £1000 fines if I fail to report a lost ID card within a certain time frame after 2008. To make it voluntary before that period provided you don't want a Passport, DL, access to NHS or Employment.

It's this sort of stuff that worries me.

As for IDing for drink, these days I tend to walk out if ID'd. Had enough of it to be honest and would rather go somewhere that didn't inconvience me.
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RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Craven Lords back ID cards

Postby shifty_ben » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:37 pm

I agree'd with you up to

As for IDing for drink, these days I tend to walk out if ID'd. Had enough of it to be honest and would rather go somewhere that didn't inconvience me.


The way the law stands nowits more of an inconveniece for us, we have to fill out paperwork for people without ID, not to mention what Trading Standards et al do to us if you turn out to be under 18. It is a pain, i still get ID'd and especially as its normally me asking for it, I get quite thrown off. Sadly thats the way the law works and its a pain in the ass for everyone involved.
I think the ID cards are likely to change our society - permanantly I fear - to something we never wanted. The Government stopped listening on this and other matters a long time ago. Something has to be done about this, it seems a large amount of the public are against it, but it also seems many of those who are against it don't even realise just how bad it could/will be. At the moment if you want to get on a train (for example) you pay for your ticket, in the future you may well not even get a ticket unless you have that card on you.
It isn't going to stop terrorism, they can already fake passports and driving licenses so whats to stop them from doing the same with ID cards? OK so there will be a database but 3 years down the line how many people will check it against the database? I really really hate the idea of my movements being tracked in the way that will be easily possible.
My intention once this is compulsory is to inconvenience the Government as much as possible by using my rights under that data protection act, and regularly requesting a copy of all details they have on record. The maximum they can legally charge is Ten pounds, and knowing that them having my details is causing them that much hassle will be worth Ten pounds a shot.

One day I hope we will ahve a Government that listens, but it is a while away yet.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Craven Lords back ID cards

Postby nelz » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:14 pm

Rhakios wrote:Your photo in the magazine doesn't have you looking old enough for a grandson nelz, or is it the one from your WW2 era ID card?
:D


The sepia makes me look younger :)

That photo was taken the year before he was born.
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RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Craven Lords back ID car

Postby GMorgan » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:43 pm

I'm not saying the ID thing isn't annoying for the people who have to implement it nor would I claim its your fault. I just find it annoying that once again the country is more concerned with chasing underage drinkers than dealing with the horrendous array or real problems that face this country. Most of whcih are caused by the government.

Apparently Cameron has come out and said he will bring down the ID card legislation should he win the next election but the Tories are all for Software Patents. Makes it very difficult.
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RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Craven Lords back ID car

Postby shifty_ben » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:08 pm

I'm not saying the ID thing isn't annoying for the people who have to implement it nor would I claim its your fault. I just find it annoying that once again the country is more concerned with chasing underage drinkers than dealing with the horrendous array or real problems that face this country. Most of whcih are caused by the government.


Hear Hear! As someone who has had Trading Standards pop in unannounced to say just wanted to explain about such n such new ID card scheme I have to say there are things they could be doing that are far more worthwhile. Alcohol can be dangerous, theres no denying it poses a risk, but at the moment there are far bigger issues that the country should be dealing with.

I think I would probably rather the ID cards than software patents, but I don't know, they are both going to be abysmal for our society
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RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Craven Lords back ID car

Postby GMorgan » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:15 pm

My thinking is that Software patents are going to be the domain of the EU rather than British parliment so why the Tories may well support them they haven't got the whole say on the issue. As always though no decision can be made until you see a manifesto on paper (or E-Book if your that way inclined).
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RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Craven Lords back ID car

Postby towy71 » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:43 pm

This bunch of tossers have had a chance to improve the lot of the people but are too busy squandering money on "yet more crap projects"
Until we get a decent proportional representation system there will be no change.

The below comes from The Electoral Reform Society webpage and illustrates the skewed nature of "the first past the post" system
2005

Code: Select all
Party                              Votes    %Votes    Seats    %Seats
Labour                           9,566,618    35.2       356       55.1
Conservative                 8,785,941    32.4       198       30.7
Liberal Dems                 5,985,414    22.0       62        9.6


if I could do maths I'd tell you how many seats they ought to have :roll:
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RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Craven Lords back ID car

Postby GMorgan » Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:20 pm

It would be somewhere around 224 by proportional representation but remember peoples voting habits would change if there was PR. A lot of Labour voters stayed away who wouldn't have if there was a PR system in place. A lot of people were still worried about the rabid Thatcherite type Tory party and given Howards racism based election campaigne its not hard to see why.

Also every country which has PR gets into trouble with getting elected officials nobody wants. In the end they just fudge the system to ensure people like Le Penn in France stay away from office. Berlusconi in Italy has never held a proper government because he can't get a majority. The Italian leadership has been challenged 26 times in the last 27 years. Look at the state of their economy, says it all really.

Personally I'd go for a proportional representation based House of Lords with expanded powers to make impacts on legislation coming from the commons. I'd go for an American style system here where a fraction (1/3 in the US) of the seats come up for grabs at every general election. This would allow for a detactment from the popular opinion and public mood swings a second house would need to have.

The other benefit would be keeping the local representatives in parliment. I knew my old local MP reasonably well and have contacted his replacement on occassion. This wouldn't have been posible with a PR system.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Craven Lords back ID cards

Postby Rhakios » Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:52 pm

nelz wrote:The sepia makes me look younger :)

That photo was taken the year before he was born.


Well, I think you owe it to your readers to have new one done - smile!
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RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Craven Lords back ID car

Postby towy71 » Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:27 pm

GMorgan
if one used the single transferable vote system and retained the same constituencies then you would still have a local MP. The stupid skewed party list system is a canard and not truly PR, but it suited "new bloody labour" and enabled them to retain power in the Welsh assembly.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Craven Lords back ID cards

Postby Hello » Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:43 pm

shifty_ben wrote:I agree'd with you up to

As for IDing for drink, these days I tend to walk out if ID'd. Had enough of it to be honest and would rather go somewhere that didn't inconvience me.


The way the law stands nowits more of an inconveniece for us, we have to fill out paperwork for people without ID, not to mention what Trading Standards et al do to us if you turn out to be under 18..


So if you refuse someone you have to fill in paperwork even if they just do as the above said and walk off.

Personally I agree with Ben if they feel the need to ask for ID they dont deserve your custom its the buyers choice if they want to drink no matter what age they are.

The way the law is makes it very hard on 16/17 year olds with clubs as they all want to go to them but the law stands in the way for what they want to do.... 16 I found is the age where you want to properly hit the club scene.
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RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Craven Lords back ID car

Postby shifty_ben » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:07 pm

I started drinking at about 13, at the time the law was particularly lax in terms of making people ask for ID so we actually had very few problems obtaining the alcohol. Sadly that has changed, I personally hate having to ID people, but at the end of the day it is me who gets hauled over the coals for it. As I mentioned before the company will now take anyone who fails a test purchase to disciplinary, but equally badly the law hauls you over the coals. There is a statutory fine of 80 quid, on the spot. If that wasn't bad enough you get interviewed by the police, and can go to court where not only can you receive up to a 3000 pound fine (not to mention putting the shops license at risk ;) ) but you can actually get sent to jail for it.
I've never heard of anyone who _has_ actually gone to jail for that yet, but the law is currently seeking to make examples of people, especially in the wake of the massive c*ck up they made with licensing.
Anyone on these forums live in westminister? Try buy a can of Tennents, or any other lager over 5.5% ABV many of the offlicenses and supermarkets have been banned from doing so in an attempt to combat alcoholism. Forgive me if Im niave, but if I was an Alcoholic and I couldn't get my Tennents I would quite happily shift onto cheap Whisky ;)

its the buyers choice if they want to drink no matter what age they are.


I totally agree with you, theres nothing worse than a nanny state, unfortunately that is what we live in. I hope the above has made clear exactly why we as an industry are so harsh with ID, its not vindictiveness (well sometimes it is ;) ) more self preservation.

for anyone after an example of just how harsh the government is being at the moment, read the following;

There is an independant offlicense in Westminister who re-applied for his license (as everyone had to under the new scheme) in order to try and make sure he got it, he listed everything he though might help in terms of measures he takes, right down to the fact he has had a non-slip floor (Carpet I assume) put in. Gets to his license hearing and everything he wrote has become a requirement on his license, so if he needs to change his flooring (wear and tear perhaps) he has to apply for a new license!

its things like this that display how little the governement really cares for anyone. Drinking at 13 is not good for your body, but it was and still is my choice. Unfortunately the media did not help matters in their flurry of 24 hour licensing == alcoholic nation,

us asking for ID != we don't want your custom, we just can't risk not IDing any more. Sadly theres no benchmark for whether people look 21 or not, so different peoples judgement comes into play (Yes I am fully aware the law says 18 but given the harshness of the punishment we need the 3 year error margin, if you have ID showing you are over 18 then you get served, but if you look under 21 you will be asked for it)

Just to finish this post, I would point out that when I went to Canada you needed 2 forms of ID on you to get served, one was not enough. I think the government needs a boot up the *ss before we let it get that bad.


[edit]
sorry never answered your question ;) yes even if you turn around and walk out I have paperwork to do, its all about proving to Trading Standards et al that we are being vigilant with ID. In fact if I ask you for ID and you do have it, I even have to put a code into the till so that Head office and Trading Standards get an idea of what proportion of people we are IDing. Its a sad sad system really, we are located near a high school so I end up doing a huge amount of paperwork on the basis of schoolkids trying their luck.


[edit again]

Incidentally, Im glad to hear people are walking out rather than throwing fits. Obviously we would rather your custom, but I have had people throw money, bottles and various other things at me just from the words Have you got ID? Strangely though when they do that there is no more paperwork than if they don't. Sums it up really - potential physical assault (and for some of my colleagues actual assualt) generates less paperwork than someone not bringing ID. Well for us at least Im sure Head Office probably have more to do than us
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Craven Lords back ID

Postby GMorgan » Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:10 am

towy71 wrote:GMorgan
if one used the single transferable vote system and retained the same constituencies then you would still have a local MP. The stupid skewed party list system is a canard and not truly PR, but it suited "new bloody labour" and enabled them to retain power in the Welsh assembly.


I thought the current Welsh assembly system hurt Labour rather than helped them. As I understand it you add all the votes that came from consituencies you didn't win and the proportion is what decides who wins the seats for the party lists. In Wales Labour tend to win their seats by landslide margins and have 60% of the vote in most areas around me. None of these votes get counted towards the party lists. The current system benefits somebody who tends to fight marginal seats. Labour tend to dominate their seats though recently they have won nearly all of them in Wales. You only have to compare the Commons share (where Labour hold about 90% of the seats in Wales) to the Welsh Assembly share (where Labour hold exactly 50%) to see how much the WA system hurts Labour.

I still can't see how a proper PR system can be reconciled with the need for a local representative. You can just appoint a representative but that hardly becomes a useful system. My MP lives in my area and has done all his life. He knows the area and his problems and understands these things when it comes to parliment. Now your local MP doesn't always act on these things (my local MP voted against ID cards by the way) but its better than some anonomous party candidate that could be from any part of the country. It also difficult to reconcile the tendancy for PR governments to meander. You need a huge mandate to achieve anything and that simply wont happen, no government will ever change anything under a truely PR system.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Craven Lords back ID cards

Postby nelz » Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:00 am

Rhakios wrote:Well, I think you owe it to your readers to have new one done - smile!


I did... they refused to print it :!:
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